Erie County Executive Debate Open Thread
WGRZ-TV broadcast a debate between the two remaining candidates for Erie County Executive tonight from the historic Central Terminal on Buffalo’s East Side.
I have made no secret of my support for Republican Chris Collins prior to tonight, so I am aware that I approach the debate with a confirmation bias in my choice of Collins over Democrat Jim Keane.
I’d like to run through my notes from the debate as it happened and give a general take at the end of the post.
- When asked where the candidates would make cuts in the county budget, they both rabidly responded that they will both kill patronage. Uh, right. Patronage is one of the most sacred cows in elective politics. Every politician promises to hire the best and brightest or that he/she will not hire friends and family, but it’s a necessary evil. If Keane is elected, he will most certainly put trusted friends, advisers, and family into positions in government, as will Collins. It’s just the way it goes. I think both candidates have pledged to be transparent and will do their best to avoid the implication of nepotism. After the unqualified patronage-a-palooza of the last decade, the media is on the hunt for any evidence of impropriety. Generally speaking, both candidates err on the side of efficiency to achieve cost savings. Collins with six sigma quality principles, transparency, and business tactics and Keane with efficiency grants, a tough control board, and ErieSmart (his version of Citistat)
- What was with the bad sound work on Collins’ microphone throughout the debate? It looked like he was starring in his own bad kung fu movie.
- Also, was it necessary to give us repetitive shots of Scott Levin nodding sincerely throughout the debate and biting his lip like a low rent Bill Clinton? Channel 2, On The Side of Cheap and Tawdry Production
- On the waterfront, Keane is very good friends with Brian Higgins. Evidently, this means he supports all of Higgins plans for the inner and outer harbor and this should curry favor from the voters. I’m starting to notice a trend where Keane ties himself to the accomplishments (perceived or real) of his contemporaries. Keane wants to be held accountable if Inner Harbor construction isn’t complete on his watch, as if he’s the guy who holds the hammer on the issue. Collins seems to recognize that there are numerous interests at the table on waterfront development and he pledged to be a responsible steward of the process.
- Casino? They’re both for it, although Collins seems to be a bit more resigned to it being a fait accompli rather than something he would champion. Keane notes all of the good jobs that will result from the construction of the casino and in the casino, post construction. Many of these jobs will be of the $10 per hour variety…this will matter later on. Let’s move on.
- Joel Giambra makes an appearance to ask a question of “the candidates”, although it is directed solely at Collins. Essentially, he asks Collins to explain what he means by running county government like a business. Giambra highlights that the largest cost center in county government is personnel and the employees are protected by the Taylor Law, how can he make cuts? My lord, a cogent question! Collins goes on to explain that he will negotiate in good faith and put the full benefit and salary packages on the table for negotiation. Private sector benefit comparison with public sector benefits, define the delta between the two and work towards compromise on give and take. Any savings realized as a result of the new contract will be split 50/50 between the public employees and the taxpayers. Sounds pretty sensible, eh?
Keane is offered a chance to respond and immediately blames Joel Giambra for the mess we’re in, it’s not the fault of the public unions, you see. When he was with Gorski, they were faster, leaner, more efficient, etc. Joel ruined everything. I’d like to have someone check out these facts that Keane keeps putting forward on lower taxes under Gorski v. Giambra and lower personnel costs as well. Are we talking real dollars? Inflation factored in? Why is it that the bloggers are always left to do the heavy lifting on this kind of crap? Also, Keane won’t negotiate contracts in public, but he is interested in using efficiency grants to buy out cost legacies. Not real sure what that means. Also, Keane wants to abolish the Water Authority and bring it under the control of the Executive, Legislature, and Control Board. Mind you, the head of the water authority was a good friend of the Gorski/Keane administration and all commissioners are already confirmed by the legislature.
- An old lady from Cheektowaga asks Keane why he accepted the endorsement of Paul Clark, who called him a racist and a liar about his Vietnam service. Keane would like to take this opportunity to remind all the undecided religicals in the County that he is a Catholic and holds his Christian principles dear. Sure he took Clark’s endorsement, but he had to if he wanted the party to move forward. The Cheektowaga committee made a power grab to back Clark and failed. If everyone is to get along and patronage jobs and fundraising are to move forward unfettered, Keane had to eat shit and take Clark’s endorsement. If Clark ever envisioned doing more than mowing his lawn and building model ships in his basement, he had to eat shit and give his support to Keane. It’s an untidy shit sandwich for everyone, who cares? Sure, Clark turned out to be dirtier than a mafia capo, but who’s counting?
- Will either of these guys work to keep the Buffalo Bills in town? Collins will work towards it, but knows the issue is not completely in his hands, seeing as how the Bills are a private enterprise and the NFL is a profit hungry giant. Keane says he will pressure the NFL to rethink it’s position on publicly owned teams, blah blah blah. A populist answer, but exceptionally unlikely.
I’m gonna take a break for a while, but I thought I’d give my final take…
In the end, I thought that Collins came across as measured, intelligent, patient, realistic, and sensible. He seemed to be shaken with the format and his lack of populist fervor struck me as refreshing. Keane came across as a polished populist but also as an overpromising and petulant jerk. I thought Collins was taking a fresh approach to the problems that have plagued us for so long, but was cautious in promising what he could deliver. It took us 40 years to dig ourselves a hole this deep, fixing it is isn’t going to happen overnight. Keane has some good ideas and agrees with Collins on many of the issues, but his managerial style appears to be dictatorial, uninspired, and bullying. Sound familiar?
Confirmation bias? I’m not sure, I just know that Collins looks like a leader and Keane looks like a second fiddle who has patiently waited for his shot at the big chair.
At the end of the night, I felt that Keane had more in common with Joel Giambra than I ever thought possible. They both represent the past, an ugly past marked by immense failure.
Let’s start looking towards our future.
To watch clips from the debate, head over to WGRZ.com
Chris from Buffalo Says:October 26th, 2007 at 6:19 pm
Holy cow answer a question Jim. What is wrong with $10 an hour jobs. (eventhough he is also creating $30 $40 etc) My guess is that if 36% of City of Buffalo residents are below poverty line, most are not educated. Would Keane hire an uneducated individual with little skills at $25 an hour?
Chris from Buffalo Says:October 26th, 2007 at 6:21 pm
Not to mention other sites but let me just say everything I found does not favor Keane. Don’t forget debate Sunday 10-12 on WBEN
Christopher Smith Says:October 26th, 2007 at 6:40 pm
Mention other sites all you want. We fear no media outlet here…
Tom Says:October 26th, 2007 at 7:58 pm
I agree, Keane seemed more interested in trying to make Collins look bad than anything else. He came across as petty and as a typical Buffalo pol. Ay yi yi.
If I hear any more about the Gorski administration being the salad days of WNY, I’m gonna throw up. We voted Giambra in overwhelmingly for a reason. Sure, it didn’t work out, but an overwhelming majority of us thought Gorski was a slug.
Jake Says:October 26th, 2007 at 8:01 pm
Enough with calling Collins a loanshark or a slumlord. He loaned a guy money, the guy used that money to buy properties and the investment went bad. In turn, Collins didn’t get paid back. A bad deal for Collins, to make it seem as if he is a slumlord is cheap and lame.
I’ve done business with Chris’s companies and they are ethical, timely in payment, and the employees love him. He seems like a person with good sense and judgment, he’s got my vote.
Mike Says:October 26th, 2007 at 8:03 pm
Collins is a guy who got rich off tearing down companies and putting people out of work. Fuck him, I dont want that guy picking at the bones of our economy. Hop in your Lexus and head back to Clarence!
Chris from Buffalo Says:October 26th, 2007 at 8:27 pm
It is absolutely PATHETIC that Channel 2 hyped the fact that they are having a debate for erie county exec and yet don’t mention it on their nightly news cast. It is almost 30 Minutes into the 11pm news and we have heard stories about the three people walking around bidwell area, paul clark investigation, Niagara Falls Mayor’s position on verious topics, Lugosi Jr. doing something about something, Goo Goo Dolls singer moving back to buffalo, a new jersey house decorated for holloween and NOT ONE STORIE ABOUT THE DEBATE!!!!!!!!!! Something tells me that if the debate wasn’t won by Collins hands down, it would have been the top five stories.
PATHETIC CHANNEL 2 and SHAME ON YOU FOR NOT REPORTING THE NEWS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OBVIOUSLY WE CAN NOT COUNT ON YOUR INDEPENDENCE!!!!!!!!!!! THIS SHOULD BE SPREAD TO EVERYONE POSSIBLE.
To say the fact that the Goo Goo Dolls Lead singer moving back to buffalo is more important than the debate run on your channel monorated by your lead news caster is laughable.
Chris from Buffalo Says:October 26th, 2007 at 8:30 pm
Hey Mike did you know that some of the Jobs wouldn’t even be around if he hadn’t taken over the businesses. By the way if you are doing a Lit drop for Keane you better get to bed.
Fed-Up in WNY Says:October 26th, 2007 at 11:32 pm
Who’s tired of hearing Chris Collins talking about how government should be run like a business? I loooove how Scott Leven (spelling) didn’t come out first with Chris Collins investing in a known Eastside slumlord. And he said he’d be asking “tough” questions ….
Chris from Buffalo, I totally agree with you on Channel 2’s so called news broadcasts.
Jim Ostrowski Says:October 27th, 2007 at 12:54 am
I love the answers about patronage. Total bullcrap.
Patronage is not the cause of big government. Big government is the cause of patronage. Most government workers, 95%? are civil service union workers.
The only way to eliminate patronage is to eliminate democracy. They go hand in hand. Then again, even dictators have henchmen and coat-carriers
This campaign has been deadly dull and issue-less. I mean, when you compare it to the Revolution going in the presidential race, it’s a real sleeping pill.
Can you imagine anyone making a video about this race like this one?
Jim Ostrowski Says:October 27th, 2007 at 12:54 am
Here’s the link–
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlPjsGFcXlg
WNYMedia.net :: Buffalo Pundit Says:October 27th, 2007 at 4:19 am
[…] Also - check out Geek’s take on the WGRZ debate here. « Previous Entry […]
Pauldub Says:October 27th, 2007 at 4:55 am
Between visitors, and the fact that Keane was depressing the hell out of me, I turned off much earlier than you.
Like I said at my place - Collins can be the one.
Keane may be qualified to hold political office, but i don’t think he is qualified to do the job. Big difference.
Andrew Kulyk Says:October 27th, 2007 at 7:21 am
Great recap Geek… Since I am out of town it was good to read this report.
Giambra’s question on union contracts and the Taylor Law are the big elephants in the room. The pay and benefits scale between the public sector and the private sector are huge, and that’s why no one ever leaves once they get a county or municipal job.
That being said, Collins is naive if he thinks he is just going to wave a magic wand and get meaningful savings from the unions. In the public sector, the CSEA’s and the police unions pretty much use this mantra in collective bargaining - “Here is our proposal. Either you give us what we want or an arbitrator will. Have a nice day.”
Want real change? It will have to come from Albany and fundamental changes in the Taylor law to level the playing field. That is where the real discussion should be.
starbuck Says:October 27th, 2007 at 2:15 pm
I agree with totally with Andrew there (which seldom happens!)
But I wonder if the naive public approach is a deliberate bargaining stratgey Collins has in mind.
Anyhow, if given a choice between one candidate who strongly wants to take a private sector mind set and push for more affordable contracts even if there’s not much chance of success, vs. a candidate who isn’t expressing at all the same kind of mind set and who depends on a lot of union backing - well the choice seems clear to me.
That’s one important difference between the candidates.
Haterade Says:October 27th, 2007 at 4:26 pm
So are you saying that “the mess we’re in” IS the “fault of the public unions” ? If so you are full of shit.
Phil Markert Says:October 27th, 2007 at 11:50 pm
Why is the media so quiet about the debate after the fact?????
Mike Miller Says:October 29th, 2007 at 4:33 am
I’d have to give Collins the nod on substance. Keane was overly dependent on buzzwords like “brain drain” and “UB 2020″ and referring to his past with Gorski (nobody remembers you from then, Jim).
When Collins was asked about Six Sigma (several times in debates this weekend), his answers convinced me that he has the experience necessary to pull it off.
I think Collins needs a little polish on the public speaking aspects and sometimes looked a little like a deer caught in the headlights, whereas Keane obviously loves the spotlight.
I thought that there really was not much of a debate, per se, as both men seemed to agree on more issues than not, except the Taylor law. The messages from both were remarkably similar, but I have far more confidence in Collins’ ability to implement his plans.
Haterade Says:October 29th, 2007 at 7:38 am
Riiight, Mike …. KEANE depends on “buzzwords” too much ? If I had a dollar for every time “Mr. Businessman” trotted out “six-sigma blackbelt” I could buy his East Side properties .,.. you know … the ones that were paying him 17% on his money before the neighborhood “turned” on that great landlord …… put down the kool-ade.
Mike Miller Says:October 29th, 2007 at 8:15 am
Yes, Collins did use “Six Sigma blackbelt” quite a bit and I was anxious to hear what he had to say. I wrote of my skepticism of his use of this buzzword the other day:
http://shadesofgray.wnymedia.net/blogs/2007/10/22/erie-county-the-first-six-sigma-county-in-the-us/
At least Collins answered the questions about Six Sigma. IMO, beneath the buzzwords, Keane didn’t seem to have much to say about his plans for UB 2020 and how he’d implement them.
STEEL Says:October 29th, 2007 at 10:12 am
Seems to me if there is one thing Erie County needs it is a guy not afraid to fire people
Haterade Says:October 29th, 2007 at 12:41 pm
Just what DID he say, Mike ? All I heard is that he was open to a “nationwide search” for his 10th degree six sigma blackbelt, and that he would “hire the best & brightest” … hmmmm, where have we heard THAT before ?
I also didn’t buy his reasoning for not disclosing his tax returns, and he never really answered any questions about all the taxpayer monies he received to “save” all his businesses.
I also don’t trust anyone who says they are going to immediately cut their pay … it seems like pandering - ala Satish Mohan, who was allegedly going to work for $1. How’s that working out ?
True … Keane certainly comes off as a career politician, but Collins comes off as a holier-than-thou phoney IMO.
Mike Miller Says:October 30th, 2007 at 4:06 am
Well, he said he’d hire a SS blackbelt as Deputy C.E. and roll the program out, department by department. Reading between the lines of that message and knowing SS as I do, that could only mean that he would be implementing an abbreviated, less expensive version of the program and expect the departments to adopt the program themselves. That’s the only way I believe it can work. The follow up and accountability factors must be there as well.
Listen, I think both of these guys need some work and aren’t perfect. The bottom line in all this is that I don’t even get a vote (I live in Niagara County), so does it really matter what I think?
Haterade Says:October 30th, 2007 at 9:11 am
Niagara County ? !!!!!!!!! Why am I even TALKING to you then ? Be gone !
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